Interview: Ethan Crouch

Interview Transcript

Introduction

Maia: My name is Maia Dery. This episode impart of a series called the Waves to Wisdom Interviews. The project is a simple one. I seek out people I admire, surfers with what look to me to be ocean centered wisdom practices. I ask them if they’d be willing to share a surf session or two and then, after we’ve ridden some waves together, talk to me about their oceanic habits: about surfing, work, meaning, anything that comes up.

Ethan: To live life by the minimum standard and to build all my projects by the minimum standard, one isn’t going be very fulfilling for me as a person but two I don’t think it’s going to create a very beautiful world and that’s something that I want, that I want to live in, that’s something I want to pass on to future generations. So, yeah, I think we need codes and I think we need standards. I think they’re valuable but to live your life by checking that box and checking that box alone isn’t going to be adequate for us as a species to survive on this planet and isn’t going to be adequate for us as an individual to find fulfillment, much less connection with each other and all the other beautiful things that can occur on the planet if we do things right.

Maia: I first came across Ethan through his work with Surfrider Foundation— he’s one of the people working hard to make sure the beaches I an so many others enjoy are still healthy, accessible places. A business owner, consultant, passionately committed surfer and board shaper , and he’s been generous enough to speak to several groups of my students in the past. His ability to articulate the ways in which his undergraduate training in philosophy prepared him for his financially and emotionally abundant work in the construction industry inspired more than a few of those students to think more broadly about the possibilities for their own learning.

In our conversations for this interview, Ethan cited the ideas of two 20th Century philosophers, Martin Buber and Emmanuel Levinas as powerful currents in his own life. Both of these philosophers wrote about ethics based on deep connection. I loved Ethan’s story of connection with the ocean and out shared community and his commitment to leave a more beautiful world in the wake of his life.

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Maia: OK, if you are comfortable with it could you tell me your name, age, and how long you been surfing?

Ethan: Okay, my name is Ethan Crouch. I’m 36 years old and I’ve been surfing for, I, I guess pretty consistently for 17 years, 15 I don’t know [okay] 10-12 to 15 years?

Maia: So, it sounds as if you came to surfing in college?

Ethan: Yeah that’s when I really got committed to surfing is in college. And um upon graduation you know what I determined I wanted to live by the coast so that’s when I got, I’d say full time into the surfing so that was 2005 so10 years full-time I’d say, easily.

Maia: OK, and did you go to school near the coast?

Ethan: I did. I was fortunate enough to go to a school called Christopher Newport University in Southeastern Virginia, outside of Virginia Beach in the Hampton Roads Area.

Maia: What did you study in college?

Ethan: I studied Philosophy. The department there is a Philosophy and Religious Studies Department—my major ended up being, you know an ethics philosophy major.

Maia: At that point in your life did there seem to be any overlap between your surfing habits and what you were studying in your philosophy and religious studies classes?

Ethan: Hmmm. I’d say so. I was, you know, at that point I was still really learning to surf and you don’t just grab a board and paddle out your first day and then you know you’ve learned to surf. As you know Maia, learning to surf is an ongoing practice so you know initially you know that, my surfing experiences were you know I think more of an escape from the philosophical chaos that I was going through as an undergraduate student. You know cause I was kind of really trying to really learn a lot about myself too as an undergraduate 18,19 20-year-old kid. And so Philosophy was really helpful in that journey but but a difficult one.

But as I’ve kind of gotten older and gotten more comfortable and more understanding of who I was and, you know, was able to weave all the different philosophies that I was learning about into my own kind of, you know, concept of reality and as I got more more comfortable surfing it, it definitely changed, my relationship with the ocean and surfing. And um then it was more about connection. My experience with the ocean is a quiet time, a time of harmony and peace for me except when it gets real big [LAUGH] then it, then it’s a whole different thing whereas philosophy for me was, was an experience of seeking. Trying to, trying to get truth and trying to understand it and put my hands around it truth like so many things you know it’s like trying to hold onto water, it kinda keeps squeezing out of your hands. But surfing was was actually experiencing it, whereas you know in philosophy you’re trying to write it down, and trying to put it into words. And so that, that in and of itself I think is what really attracted me to the ocean and and why I can’t ever see myself going far from it because it’s become such a foundation in my life and a way to experience the world and not have to overanalyze it which is, is a tendency of mine as a person.

Maia: It would certainly explain your attraction to Philosophy as a major when you were an undergraduate when you were just a teenaged boy going into college did you know this is what you wanted to study? Or did you take a class and just discover it?

Ethan: Yeah, I had no idea. You know as a kid growing up I was very you know, sports focused. When I picked my courseload you know one night at the kitchen table at 18 years old, you know I had to sign up for a minimum of 12 credits and so I needed however many classes, you know four classes, however many classes to to fill the, the semester and came across Philosophy. And I said, “Oh, that sounds interesting, I’ll go for it.” And lo and behold I think my first day in philosophy after he passed out the syllabus and taken roll my professor ??? started to talk about the bicameral mind and the duality of our existence and all of a sudden my eyes just popped open and I was just like, “Hold on, what?” [LAUGH] And from there I just kind of got hooked and you know, I didn’t really know that world existed but I knew when I went to college I wanted to to study, I wanted to get into knowledge and I wanted to learn. Whereas in high school I got decent grades and enjoyed learning but it was more secondary to all the other things that it is growing up as a teenager, and a high school quarterback and all that stuff is kind of secondary.  So I wanted to get away from that and and I wanted to learn in my undergraduate and and I quickly realized you know Philosophy is the study of knowledge itself. You know, that whole dialogue of Truth and Beauty and Love and all these things is what really sparked my attention and grabbed me and you know that’s what I came to school for so I went for It and I’ll figure out what jobs and all that stuff, you know means afterward. Right now I’m here to explore and search and find out who I was and find out who the world was.

Maia: I have been for for some time and still am an Instructor at a small liberal arts college similar to Christopher Newport, although farther from the coast, tragically but, but it strikes me that that freedom that you allowed yourself to just explore the world and young Ethan is rare in my experience among young people and has gotten increasingly so in part because at some point they seem to have internalized a message about practicality and that you need to be practical and go into a field even as an 18-year-old that will earn you a job and a decent paycheck and that and, we’re doing this interview right now in your beautiful home on (Carolina Beach, and you don’t seem to be somebody who has struggled at to employ himself with a philosophy major can you speak to young people about majoring in something that they’re not going to, and I hear this all the time, this is a direct quote, that they’re not going to “use?”

Ethan: Yeah that’s, that’s funny. But you know I see that, cause you know I’m I’m a consider myself a pretty practical person as well. But gosh you know one thing I’m, like I said, 36 years old now and I’ve been in the in the working world professionally for 10-15 years and what I’ve learned about the business world and economies this day and age with the international way economies work is there’s so many jobs out there that you have no idea even exist, especially as a 17-18, 20-22 year old kid.

For example and I’m a I own my own consulting firm now in the construction industry doing a very specialized niche of work and I had, I didn’t even know this job existed. I didn’t even know the skills that I use on a daily basis, existed. So you know when you’re 18-19 you think okay I can be a doctor, I can be a lawyer I can be a fireman, or teacher you know or the 5-10 jobs that you learn about. But the reality of the economy is that there Is bazillions of jobs and titles and positions that employ who knows, skills that you don’t even know about.

For me and in choosing a Philosophy degree um I unwittingly gained some amazing skills that I feel catapulted me in my career in the construction industry. You know, believe it or not. Philosophy as well as that search for truth and searching for meaning and understanding and all that, I also learned how to critically think. I learned how to read. I learned how to write. I learned how to express complicated emotions and complicated logical theorums, both orally and written. And so I developed I think a really Interesting and valuable set of skills through that pursuit of knowledge.

And lo and behold I get out of my undergraduate and, you know the way I paid for my undergraduate was, was swinging a hammer as a carpenter. And so when I went, I finished school and I was like you know, I guess I’ll figure out what I’m going to do in life but in the meantime I’ll keep paying the bills as a construction guy. But then all of a sudden I realized amongst my cohort In the industry that you know I could communicate with customers really well. I could communicate with the boss really well. I could write reports really well. I could look at a complex set of problems and analyze them and figure out the best solution and prioritize what we had to do for the day and you know all of a sudden all these things and I learned in philosophy literally catapulted me in my construction career and before I knew it I was the manager. And I was the boss of a, you know, a company that was flying me all over the world, meeting with diplomats and all sorts of things that without my philosophy skills I wouldn’t be able to even communicate with these people that were much my much more my senior at this point too.

Maia: How old were you at his point?

Ethan: Well I guess I really got an international work at 26 years old. By the time I was 28-29 I was the General Manager of a $30 Million construction company that we’re doing you know international construction projects all over the world. I still have found that the critical thinking and analytical skills, I think it’s really the analytical skills that have really enabled me to be a success. Especially now I’m hired to come in as a third-party consultant and analyze huge swaths of information in, you know projects that have been running for many many years and create you know a con, concise narrative as to causation of delays and damages that you know, my clients have incurred and to be able to put that into a concise report. That is, you know almost ironically verbatim like what I learned as an undergraduate Philosophy student.

You know Masters degrees I think can be much more specific. So for me for example I went back and got my Masters degree in construction management after I decided okay I was at this point, I think I was 24-25 when I went back to grad school, I worked full time during my grad school cause I had to pay for, you know I had to I still had to pay my bills. But at that time I’d worked in the field, you know I’d had a job for a couple years and started to realize I felt comfortable working in construction and felt passionate about construction I love building things. So I decided okay, this is what I want to do, I feel right here but at 18-19 years old to decide what you’re gonna be or want to do and then try to build your undergraduate degree around that I think is completely impractical and unrealistic.

Maia: So at this point you are still in an active surfer, can you talk a little bit about how your life as a surfer fits in with this busy life as a construction consultant?

Ethan: Yeah surfing is is my foundation. Surfing is about connecting with a wave and that wave’s connected to the ocean and the ocean covers two thirds of the world and is one of most powerful forces on the earth and it helps me stay grounded. Nothing will humble you more than getting pummeled by a wave especially If the wave’s, especially if the wave’s 2 feet tall.

Maia: It’s still an ocean. Even with little waves.

Ethan: So it’s so humbling you know and that’s something that I found great value in. You know, sometimes I get out the water or I get out in life and think, “You know, I’m doing great” and “I’m killing this surf session and catching all these waves!” And then all of a sudden you know you get flipped over on your head and fall and you know everybody’s laughing at you and you’re laughing at yourself and you just realize how silly the whole thing is anyway.

So that’s why I think It’s been so helpful for me to again, kind of act as a foundation in life, it’s that humility It’s that connection to the to the world to the planet and to the forces beyond for sure. And also get physical exercise. I think that’s something that’s really really important and I think something as a society we’re we’re failing on especially as people get older in life. I’m 36 and I plan to surf till I’m dead [me too] and and physically the reward that that’s yielded me you know I feel like I’m in shape and it makes my arms strong and you know my core strong and um which helps back pain issues that are often caused by sitting in a desk all day and typing away at the keyboard. So yeah surfing is is a huge foundation for me and a way to unplug and a way to plug-in at the same time.

Maia: And you are active and have been for some time with an organization called Surfrider? For for anybody who’s listening tell them a little bit about Surfrider as an organization and your role in it why you’re drawn to work with them?

Ethan: Yeah, absolutely. Surfrider Foundation’s a really really unique nonprofit. It’s a really truly grassroots organization that has 80 some chapters across the US and I think 15-16 different countries across the world now. It’s been in operation for over 30 years, started in and Southern California with the mission of the dedication to the protection and enjoyment of our oceans, waves and beaches through a powerful activist network. So, essentially Surfrider is all about trying to protect our coasts and encourage what we like to call non-consumptive recreation. You know there’s other ways to have fun besides going to the mall and going shopping. So Surfrider that’s the “enjoyment” component to the mission in that we’re all about encouraging folks to get out and experience those coastal resources, spend time on the beach, spend time in the ocean, you know, sure surfing but you know beach combing and and just spending the day with your family experiencing the ocean and then therefore protecting those resources.

Maia: One thing I’ve noticed last couple of decades and even more in the last couple of years is how many of us seem to want to engage meaningfully with some kind of social or political or environmental process but we get overwhelmed and don’t know where to start. I really wanted to know about the steps Ethan had taken that got him from being a college kid falling in love with the ocean who just had some initial impulses to protect it to who he is today which is, an effective and powerful change agent in our local community.

Ethan: I got involved with Surfrider real casually as an undergraduate student you know  I was quickly falling more and more in love with the ocean and I think as a somewhat conscientious person I also kinda of quickly realized, or, wanted to conserve that resource you know for myself and maybe for my kids one day and for posterity in general. I know how much enjoyment and pleasure and happiness that the ocean has brought me. It just seemed to then make pretty easy sense to want to protect it. And so I started out again real casually participating in beach sweeps, you know one of the most common things our chapters across the country do is organize beach sweeps— just getting people together to go out and and walk the beach and collect trash and you know that which will subsequently reduce marine debris that that ends up you know being eaten by fish and then injected in our entire you know food streams.

And so as I got more into surfing and more slowly more involved into wanting to do more to protect the ocean, I got more involved in Surfrider. After moving to Carolina Beach in 2009. We, the local chapter started to do some efforts around Wilmington and New Hanover County to reduce the amount of single use plastics that we were using and so I was like as a member Surfrider doing more more research about what that was and quickly started to learn about you know some of the travesties that we as humans are doing to our oceans with the tons and tons of you know marine debris that we’re creating you know, every year and so I got more and more passionate about getting involved in the organization and became a board member, executive board member, and after two tears as an executive board member, became the chair for the local chapter and acted as the chair for the local chapter for 4-4 and half years and currently I’m on the executive board as a board member at large.

And again with Surfrider, I mentioned that it’s a grassroots organization it really is and that was what was inspiring to me are chapter you know we saw things locally that were impacting our beaches and Surfrider empowered us to tackle those issues and and gave us resources and knowledge and experience on how to tackle those local issues that were affecting our beach.

Maia: Many of you might have heard about the growing problem of plastic in our waterways and oceans, leading to plastic in our food. If you haven’t check out the wavestowisdom website for resources. As Ethan describes it the cigarette butt problem is an annoyance, and it is but research indicates that it’s are much worse than that.

Most of these butts are composed of cellulose acetate, in other words, plastic. Once the cigarette has been smoked the butt contains toxins that have been shown to be lethal to aquatic life in concentrations as low as 1 butt per 2 gallons of water.

The UNDP reports that

“Each year, 4.5 trillion cigarette butts are littered worldwide, by far the most littered item, with a significant percentage finding their way into our oceans and onto our shores.”

For whatever reason, it seems people who wouldn’t otherwise litter don’t have the same compunction about throwing them on the ground or beach. As honorable as beach sweeps are, they clearly weren’t going to solve the problem, even on a hyper-local level.

Ethan: For example at Wrightsville Beach, just a barrier or two island up north, we were in our periodic beach sweeps one the biggest things we are finding his cigarette butts every time we go out and one a number one items we’d collect at every beach sweep at our beach was cigarette butts and we’re kind of getting sick of it to be honest and so we said well, well let’s see if we can do something about curbing the litter practice and and we quickly learned that it was very difficult to enforce litter for cigarettes because they’re so small they blend into the sand and we didn’t want to burden lifeguards and or police with trying to monitor every smoker on the beach and so through the Surfrider network did research what are other beach communites doing?

And, you know the other 80 some chapters around the country said, “Hey well we actually were able,  had the same issues that you’re facing and were able to pass a smoking ban to prevent smoking on the beach strand and we found it was really effective in subsequently reducing the litter we found, of cigarette butts.”  We said, “Oh that sounds like a great idea. How did you do that?” And so they are able to share those resources with us as well as you are our national organization providing legal background and legal review of the town’s bylaws in the state constitution and the state ordinances that that would enable legislation to be passed or not be passed and so we were able to, use that experience and leverage it locally to pass a smoking ban at Wrightsville Beach. And you know it took many years and many effort, lots of effort to get it done but we did it. You know and without Surfrider and that support and that legal support and that experience, you know, a group of surfers probably wouldn’t have been successful at doing something like that.

Maia: So many people I know tend to struggle a little bit with being overwhelmed at the scale of problems, but that kind of local-global partnership seems like a very good approach to empower people locally, as you say, and also keep that global perspective and network.

Ethan: Exactly, exactly I think it’s really unique in that way and then there was all these tertiary benefits that it happened, you know, it starts to build a community and I think our chapter now is just that you know it’s this strong community of people that are fishermen, moms, hard-core surfer-dudes, beachcombers retirees, high school students that are all passionate about the ocean. Surfrider’s brought us together and I’ve developed these amazing relationships with people that, that you really bond with when you’re working towards common goals. And it’s tremendously helped me in my career as well, you know, Surfrider, empowered me to go speak at town council meetings, and you, know, when you can speak to a packed house of 200 people that you mobilized to come to a town council meeting to fight offshore drilling and can speak authoritatively on the issue and convincing to your council members, you know, that’s a really good skills to get, to learn that, that’s helped me in all variety of situations in life.

Maia: That shared passion thing is such an important and effective agent to combat some of the loneliness that I see a lot of my students face when they go out in the world and they have trouble with the loss of that community. Activism and companionship through activism certainly is a powerful force.

Ethan: It really, it really is and that happened by accident that was the neatest thing, you know. Somebody at one of our chapter meetings, Kenny Rinks, who’s a great woman, brought that up and ti was like, duh! I’d been working so hard on like legal reviews of different town ordinances and you know she’d mentioned that at one of the meetings and I just kind of looked up and looked around the room and was like “Oh my god, I love you guys! We’ve worked so hard together  for so many things, you know, wow, I really do love you all. And so that’s been something really neat that was total surprise.

Maia: Another way the ocean connects you to something greater than yourself. [absolutely] Yeah, so powerful. 

Do you have anything to say to, you’re 36 right? And a lot of my friends I know who are about your age are in the process of starting families of their own, do you have anything to say to the young parents based on your experience of being parented because I can tell you that the undergraduate experience that you described which is one in which you are active and have agency, is unusual and. As an educator, I would certainly like to see more young people feel like they’re in this for themselves and what they can learn about who they are and how they fit in. I wonder if you have anything to say to parents what worked for you as a child in terms of being parented.

Ethan: Well, my parents were strict my parents were real strict and my parents made me work you know and they reminded me constantly of, you know, the roof over your head kind of conversation but um it would seem like a roll your eyes burdensome kind of thing as a young kid you know having to do chores. We had a wood stove and my job you know from 14 on was to make sure all the firewood was chopped and there was a stack next to the front door, and a backup stack inside, and a third stack out in the backyard and you know and that was my job to keep that fully stocked at all times during winter. And you know it wasn’t a chore that I got paid for or a pat on the back for it was, you know, you’re part of this family and you know we need that done.

And so it was kind of old-school in that way I grew up in suburban America but it was like you know in that mentality was kind of the Life On The Prairie mentality like we need to stay warm so keep the fire stoked um and so my parents were really strict in that regard and that, that I needed to support myself financially as well, if I wanted special things you know. I mean, obviously they paid for all the groceries, they paid the mortgage, they paid for everything but if there was something special I wanted, you know, I had to go earn it. You know I was a snow, snowboarded a lot when I was growing up  and they’re like, “Great! If you want a snowboard, save up some money and buy a snowboard!” And I did it and I love that snowboard, I still got it to this day because I cut grasses and I shoveled snow and saved birthday money you know worked for my buddy’s dad’s construction company in the summers and the weekends and scraped money together so I could buy a snowboard and that, you know, that taught me, I think, so much. And it made me very self-reliant and I think in this world self reliance and resiliency is the key if you’re gonna be successful in anything and not just go crazy because it’s tough out there. We’re all connected more than we ever were but we’re all more distant than we have been as a species at the same time and that upbringing, you know, I think encouraged me to be able to take care of myself and gave me the skills and you know learned how to save money and learned how to work hard and I think that, coupled with obviously the knowledge and experience that I gained through undergraduate and also in the work world, but that work ethic is what they really I think instilled in me and I’m so thankful for them instilling that work ethic because then when I hit the professional world it was just of course we work until this thing is done. I’m not gonna work till my time’s up, I’m gonna work until the project’s done. I don’t, I didn’t, you know, spend my one hour chopping wood, no, I spent as much time as I needed until the wood was all chopped. You know that’s reality, you know, that’s how you become successful in the professional world whether it’s IT, or construction or pharmaceutical or whatever industry.

Not, “I gave it my best effort”, you know. They weren’t satisfied with that. At all, at all. And so, I appreciate my parents for those things and I paid for the majority of my undergraduate. I did get some student loans and they helped me with books and so forth now but to answer your questions about your students’ experience, it was liberating for me in that if my parents were paying for the whole of my undergraduate degree they would probably have a significant decision as to what major I was gonna take because they were paying for it. Whereas, for me, I was paying for myself so it was, “I’m here, I’m paying for it, this is what I want to do, this is what I want to pursue.”

Maia: We’ve surfed a couple of times now recently audit’s been been a full North Carolina range last week, it was, it’s cold now it’s wintertime and it got hollow enough and fast enough that I and my longboard thought better of it and got out of the water  and, and today it was, what do you think, maybe 6-8 inches maybe [laugh] 6-8 Hawaiian…

Ethan: I don’t know, a couple of the sets looked pretty big thinking you got the pretty big one today.

Maia: I got the shin high, double over… I overheard this fascinating conversation with you and one of your usual surfing friends where you were talking about one of your jobs or a tendency in one of your jobs and you were referring to some engineer who was based in the Midwest who is running calculations and making recommendations about a way to build something that is completely impractical, really even impossible for the local conditions and this is something that in my own personal life, my professional life, one could even say my spiritual life, I have run into over and over again which is that standardization is sometimes the enemy of truth and I wonder if you have anything to say about that because you are in a business that must have to deal with global standards. I wonder if you have anything to say, kind of on the same theme of how the local and the global are intersecting today?

Ethan: Yeah, that’s an interesting question you can continue to use the metaphor of construction you know you need codes and you need standards to achieve the minimum requirements to build X, Y, or Z, a house, so that the house doesn’t fall over but it’s often, I think, forgotten that the building code is just that, it’s the minimum standard that can be applied across, over a vast variety of environments in different scenarios but to try to take that approach of the code is the right way to do things all the time is, you’re gonna fall short, you’re not not gonna be able to build your project. And so, you know, you need to for this, in the piling example, you know, you need to understand the local conditions and how the water table interacts locally with our sand as a pile’s being driven and you know the conditions that are in the Midwest are completely different so it’s important that there’s a minimum code in that there’s a minimum code in that we need the rigidity of the structure to stand and not just fall but to try to apply that to every scenario you know just doesn’t work, it’s not constructable but that’s, you know, I think the same thing goes for life too, you know, that there’s minimum standards that I think we as a people need to take, you know when interacting with one another, interacting with the physical world need to take, you know, when interacting with the physical world whether it’s, you know, “I don’t litter.” That’s a minimum standard, you know, that’s not everything else is okay. For me life’s been, you know, “Hey, well let’s organize a litter cleanup,” not just don’t litter, you know, so to live life by the minimum standard and to build all my projects by the minimum standard, one isn’t going be very fulfilling for me as a person but two I don’t think it’s going to create a very beautiful world and that’s something that I want, that I want to live in, that’s something I want to pass on to future generations. So, yeah, I think we need codes and I think we need standards. I think they’re valuable but to live your life by checking that box and checking that box alone isn’t going to be adequate for us as a species to survive on this planet and isn’t going to be adequate for us as an individual to find fulfillment, much less connection with each other and all the other beautiful things that can occur on the planet if we do things right.

Maia: You’re a small business functioning in an economy whose rules look pretty destructive to the environment at the moment. Do you have any ideas about how businesses should, could act in this moment when it seems and I’m certainly no scientist but it certainly seems like we’re at this crux point?

Ethan: In terms of like my business in construction or business in general?

Maia: Any way you feel like you have something valuable to contribute.

Ethan: Well I love the tangible reality of construction that’s one reason why I enjoy the field so I’ll stick with that metaphor. You know, there is the right way to build and there’s a wrong way to build. You know, and minimum code standards aside. There’s there’s still best practices, you know, there’s best design practices, there’s best management practices. There’s best construction techniques and we have an obligation I think to, to choose the best or at least pursue the best and the fastest, easiest, cheapest way to do things isn’t an effective model to be a sustainable species, you know, if we just build everything and use everything that’s disposable and has a lifecycle of 20 minutes yet persists in our environment for hundreds of years it doesn’t make sense and is gonna cause the collapse of our species and our planet. I feel very strongly about that, that’s the truth you know there’s only so many resources on the planet, there’s only so many landfills and they’re all filling up. And what’s happening subsequently is that you know, more and more debris and more and more stuff that we’re done with and throwing away is ending up in our oceans.

So we need to build sustainably, we need to build durable products that are reusable, that can have a long life and I think also add value to your own life. If you surround yourself with the disposable things that I think has a huge impact on your, you know, the way you live on a day-to-day basis as well as the way you interact with the physical world. In the construction world we’re starting to get better at I think to be honest in some ways you know we have programs like the LEED Certification Program that defines you know best practices for sustainable construction that include site selection and best materials, locally sourced materials in all sorts of things and that’s growing, you know a growing trend in the industry and I think things like that need to continue to grow. There’s also, I think, better planning, things like urban infill mixed use development can be beneficial to communities as opposed to just rampant sprawl where it’s fast and easy to build a single-story strip mall but then you have to, next door to that, build more houses and then next door to that build office space and then we’ve taken up three times the footprint that we could have taken if we created a mixed-use structure. So there’s best ways to do things and in terms of how we can manage, our planet and manage our companies, you know, that’s what, what I see and what I try to pursue. And in our company we’re lucky in that we’re carving out a niche  with public facilities cause that’s something I’m really passionate about and I enjoy. similar to the beach. We’re working on several public parks and so we can build parks that preserve green spaces in in urban environments and also encourage people to be active and you know so there’s lots of exciting really cool things that we can do as businesses, as corporations and stuff if we, again you know, pursue that quality, pursue the best and not just accept the minimum code standards.

Maia: For behavior as well as construction, right?

Ethan: For behavior, for construction, for, you know, how you manage your business and the policies you set up in your corporation, all of the above.

Maia: Sounds like it’s pretty important that your corporation is privately owned and not beholden to the shareholders to maximize their profit?

Ethan: Yeah we start to, I mean for me. certainly, I am a small business and I can pretty easily set those standards and then try to encourage that amongst my employees but I’ve got hope. I’ve got hope that, you know, shareholders can also see the value in those types of organizations. But I’m seeing it, you know from the outside, I’m seeing, you know, good companies be successful and add value to shareholders and so it can be done, you know I’ve got hope. If the shareholders will demand it as well um, it works both ways, you know, you can maximize profit and create a sustainable company and not just you know sustainable in that you no don’t use Styrofoam cups in the coffee maker but a sustainable company that’s not 100% committed to 15% growth every year. I think that’s a trap of capitalism that a lot of us fall into in our pursuit of businesses and shareholders and also life though. I don’t think we have to grow 15% every year you know. Why don’t we sustain our growth and why don’t we sustain our company and develop long-term relationships with our clients and just work on trying to do the best we possibly can for them. And growth or no growth if you’re doing that and you’re providing a good quality product and it’s, your doing the best you can and doing the best for your clients, our businesses has been very successful by doing just that.

Maia: Is there a philosopher whose work is still important to you or influential?

Ethan: Yeah I’m in there lots, lots gosh I’m in but to put on Emmanuel Levinas still always will weigh heavily on me you know his concept of totality and infinity I think has really shaped my worldview.

Maia Has it influenced do you think your thinking as a surfer?

Ethan: Hmm, yeah?

Maia: Or has your experience as a surfer and contributed your understanding of Totality and Infinity?

Ethan: A little bit for sure you know. Surfing is a tangible experience with infinity, you know, and that’s a powerful experience and you know him and Martin Buber really start to I think delve into that, and it impacted me spiritually as well as as a person in general but that experience with otherness and the Thou, and Infinity and things well beyond ourself, you know surfing you know goes hand-in-hand with that experience. You know just sitting out, looking out on the horizon and just seeing as far as you can see, vastness it makes me feel really small.  But it also inspires me in some really unique way and I don’t know what it is exactly but it’s an experience with infinity.

Maia: For more information about Emmanuel Levinas, Martin Buber, the Surfrider Foundation, Waves to Wisdom coaching and retreats, visit wavestowisdom.com.