Podcast

“Surfing became my everything… my religion, my peace of mind, my ego checker,… my happiness meter, … it’s really everything for me. But that doesn’t mean that I’m like a surf rat and I’m only hanging at the beach all day, it’s just, the surfing frame of mind extends outside of the actual act of surfing.”

                                                                                                                                                          Andrea Kabwasa

 

Transcript

Interview Date: June 2016

 

My name is Maia Dery. This interview with longboard surfer Andrea Kabwasa is the first in a series called Waves to Wisdom. The project is a simple one. I seek out people I admire, surfers with what look to me to be ocean centered wisdom practices, ask them if they’d be willing to share a surf session or two, and then, after we ride some waves together, talk to me about their oceanic habits, surfing, work, love, meaning, and anything else that comes up. Andrea was generous enough to agree to two surf sessions in Malibu, the Eden of modern surfing if ever there was one. The sessions we shared were a little bit terrifying but magical. The interview was even better. Welcome to Waves to Wisdom.

Andrea: My name’s Andrea Kabwasa and I’m 47 and I’ve been surfing, I dunno, about, I dunno, what is that about 15, 14, 15 years or something like that.

Maia: And we are in Malibu right next to the beach and we surfed this morning a building swell, [mm hm] pretty exciting [laugh] and uh I don’t have a lot of experience with big crowds and it was unsurprisingly [yeah] well populated. Beautiful wave– you’ve been surfing Malibu for most of your time as a surfer or did it take you a few years to get there?

Andrea: Yeah I been surfing there maybe about 12,12 or 13 years yeah quite a while.

Maia: How long did it take you to get comfortable with the crowd?

Andrea: Oh, I accepted it right off the bat.

Maia: Right away okay [LAUGH]. So you were a full grown adult when you started surfing?

Andrea: Yes I was.

Maia: What, what led you take it up?

Andrea: It was something I thought about when I was a child and I remember watching surfers. My aunt, my aunt used to take us to the beach and I would see the surfers. And I do remember saying I want to do that one day. So you know fast-forward through life, and all kinds of stuff and I had one of these epiphanies kinds of deals where I questioned what I wanted to do. Realized I could do anything I wanted, what did I want to do and I went to sleep and then when I woke up, surfing came to mind.

Maia: As Andrea shared her story with me, of course, I couldn’t help look for overlap in our oceanic autobiographies. Like me she’d had a childhood desire, made her living in that moment as a teacher, and had a story whose plot was woven of the warp of loss and weft of waves. It was my 40^th birthday had prompted me to finally get a board in the water. Now, ten years later, I was somewhere in the process of dealing with my own loss, my first really, truly, devastatingly broken heart. It was the end of an ill-advised love that had turned out, inevitably, to not be what I’d wished it was. An obvious failure to see clearly. But now I could do almost anything I wanted and what I wanted was, among other things, to surf with and listen well to Andrea. And to bring what I knew would be wise words to someone else who might need them more than I did.

Andrea: I got up and went surfing. I told my mom I was going to go surfing cause I was living with my mom then and she basically said, “ Go! That’s great!” [Beautiful] So, that helped a lot [ok] cause if she would’ve said, “Ah, don’t do that don’t waste your time, I probably wouldn’t have done it. But um her initial instinctual positive reaction was like “Oh, ok yeah I’m gonna do that then.”

Maia: Good MOM! And so did you take a lesson?

Andrea: Yeah, I took a lesson and uh, yeah, fell in love right away.

Maia: Tell me about those 2 instructors, those first few lessons.

Andrea: Those first few lessons, those started off on land, right? Me having this epiphany that I really, I’m a grown-up. I’m not a kid I’m a grown-up and I’m free after leaving a pretty bad relationship and getting the courage to leave because it was abusive so mentally and everything. So, having the courage to do that and you know licking my wounds at my mom’s trying to figure out what I’m gonna do with my life. You know, it something happened where I just realize that, “Wait a minute. I’m free and I really can do whatever the hell I wanna do.” you know? That realization was, was a huge deal and then from there it just basically went to okay so, “What do I want to do?” I had no idea. I just went to sleep with that, “What do I want to do with my life? I can do anything I want” and then when I woke up it was basically surfing. So I went back to that childhood where I remember saying, “I want to do that one day!” You know it always goes back to that which is interesting. And told my mom, “I want to go surfing.” And her response helped me so much because it was like you could see like she was really excited like, “Yeah! Go surfing!” In her mind that was great that was cool. Go do that. Which helped a lot. And so I went and took a surf lesson and the first guy was like a, what I would, you know cause I didn’t know anything about surfing, but he was a stereotypic surfer dude. Surfer talk. Surfer everything it was great, you know, I learned how to surf, I mean I stood up on the board that that was the thing I stood up on the board. I might’ve stood up on the board twice and I was out there for about an hour and a half it was fun, a lot of fun. I remember standing up but I can’t remember much else out of that cause, Maia, I was so engulfed with the act of trying to do this. But I do remember driving home I was really happy. I’d literally, literally forgot what that felt like. Like, I had no, I no longer had the concept of what happiness actually feels like and it, you know, and I’m not talking about you know you got your kids, they make you happy, got your friends they make you happy, got your loved one I’m talking like happy where, that I used to have when I was a little kid. And it’s like pure happiness of just doing what you’re doing just not connected to anything or anybody, not worried about all this will make this person proud of me or it was a, it was just like pure, cool feeling and that’s what I remember. And that was my drive home from, from my first surf lesson and it lasted for about a half hour and it was bumper-to-bumper traffic and I then I kind of got back in that mode but then I was this as I was driving I do remember, “Wow, that like, I was really happy that felt really good. So of course I went back and got more surf lessons but this time I went back up to the beach and somebody basically said,” Oh you know you should have him give you a surf lesson.” And so it was this one surfer guy who was very effeminate, totally non-stereotype of what you think a surfer would be. Very talkative, very kind and um I, you know, it was perfect for me. Very um welcoming, yeah. So I took lessons with him and he gave me really good tips that you know, he showed confidence in me and helped me buy my first surfboard and that was it after that it was like, “Well, I’m not doing anything else because I’m like a half-hour happiness every day is fantastic. You know, like I’d still go back into my post trauma stuff that you go through sometimes when you go through some stuff and put yourself in positions where you’re like, “Why the hell did I put myself in that position?

Maia: Yes, I know this question.

Andrea: Yeah, but you know on a daily basis of getting a little bit a jolt of happiness, a little bit a jolt of happiness, slowly, before you know it you’re like, “I’m doing pretty good. I feel pretty good.” because that was, that connection this pure happiness was connected to surfing. That, you know that was a constant while I was trying to put my life together basically, you know? It saved my life, really. I mean that’s how I, that’s how I view it. Surfing basically saved my life because I was such in a, you know, really bad space, really bad space. Who knows? Who knows, you know? I coulda either continued my spiral of making self-destructive decisions or not, you know, and I was headed in the spiral of constant self-destructive decisions, where surfing, kinda went “ER” kind of turned that a little bit for me and, um, you know, that’s where that truth thing comes you know when now you are, you’re questioning why you’re in this position and you know my modus shifted from being a victim, “Why is this always happening to me?” “Why is this always happening to me?” to, to solutions-focused, you know like, “Okay this happened but basically taking ownership that it happened and seeing if I can make things better for myself, you know? So it was all tied to this feeling of being happy, you know? I didn’t know that back then but that, that was my anchor. It didn’t have nothing to do with how good or bad I was it was just 30 minutes. The act of surfing is (46:18) I was so engulfed in that act that, you know, I don’t time to think, “Like I am happy!” It was more like the muscles are sore but it feels good and, “Wow, that was awesome!” and, “Wow, that dolphin was so cool that popped up!” you know, like, all these random things would happen like seals and dolphins and seaweed and sunsets and all these little things that you know, I never noticed before. You know, I never noticed it, I never noticed the sunset, I never noticed the wind. I never noticed the, you know, now, you know ok this is about 6 knots, there’ll be texture on the ocean, all these things that were tied to nature, it was like um. Just, it just woke me up to something other than the consequences of living in a concrete society brings you and everybody’s affected by it some kind of way and you know, from that point on it really just became a battle, it still is for me, basically it’s always a battle about trying to get back to the ocean tryin’ to get back to the ocean, trying, constantly: God it’s getting too much I’ve got to get back. But that was good, I felt lucky to have that one instructor and he was really good, really good.

Maia: And can you tell me about your first instructor or instructors? Was that instructive for you that he didn’t fit the stereotype?

Andrea: Yeah because I didn’t either [LAUGH]

Maia: Although the grace and skill of her surfing was in a different universe than mine, Andrea’s story was built of steps I think know well from my own. As a college instructor for the last decade and a half, my time surfing had dissolved so many artificial barriers I’d constructed for myself, particularly in my identity as a teacher of art and photography. They were barriers that initially stood between the subject I thought was the reason I was there and the clear objective of an education, the ability to craft a better life for yourself, your community, and your loved ones. Barriers that put a false gap between my own art practice and teaching, and between work and play. Andrea’s take was instructive.

Maia: You were in your early 30s then [yep] and but that was not the first uh way that you had oriented your life around physical activity. You have a background as an athlete, right?

Andrea: Yeah, yeah, my you know I don’t know, my mom she just never, she really hate, hated uh stereotypes or roles that you have to follow. And so what we could do that was neutral was activities, sports. So lots of sports you know lots of outdoor play kind of stuff and so that started really young and she got us swimming right away. It was all about keeping us active and keeping us uh, trying to keep us from being too gender oriented in terms of toys and what you’re supposed to do. So that was really good you know.

Maia: Your mom was and probably still is a powerful influence.

Andrea: For me yeah she is [yeah].

Maia: You started in San Diego but found Malibu relatively quickly.

Andrea: Yeah, yeah because I, I’m getting ready to turn 32 and um was basically coming back home to kind of lick my wounds after pretty, uh horrendous long-term relationship.

Maia: Clearly you seem strong and healthy and happy and so you made it out of that rough patch.

Andrea: Yeah! For sure!

Maia: Can you talk about the ways that you think surfing influenced you?

Andrea: Yeah, that that started the healing immediately. I mean I think just being near the water just being by the beach actually automatically helps. It helps anybody. You know I’ve never really seen children fighting at the beach, ever. I have yet to see that. My opinion is the hustle and bustle of, of city life of trying to survive, um, just takes toll on you and, you know it doesn’t help making bad decisions in your life but overall it’s just the concrete lifestyle causes you to be blocked in but then you do that, you’re blocked in so much that it’s just, you don’t know that there is anything else. It’s like when people fall in love with hiking and or fall in love with some kind of activity that gets you outdoors you know, it kind just kind of breaks up the concrete. And so surfing did that for me for me it’s like a frame of mind, you know? So I just feel lucky to, to have stumbled on it, you know.

Maia: Absolutely, I share that feeling of being very lucky. So you are a teacher yourself [yep, I’m a teacher] and you teach special ed. now?

Andrea: I teach special education now, yep.

Maia: Full time in Los Angeles?

Andrea: Full-time in Los Angeles County.

Maia: Did you start teaching after or before you started surfing

Andrea: I started teaching after.

Maia: Is there a story that you could tell about being a special education teacher in which surfing or some of these lessons of truth or presence or something that you got from surfing you can identify that, “That helped me in this moment with the student or this administrator, this form, or any part of your [yeah] job and the challenges that you have.

Andrea: You know as far as teaching, it just your frame of mind changes the longer you surf and so that helps with working with kids because change is inevitable, problems are always gonna arise but that mentality of going with the flow or hanging loose actually applies and surfing, even though it’s a stereotype, it’s a cliché but um that helped.

Maia: Without directly arguing with me Andrea pointed out how much surfing requires you to retrain your instincts. A fearful person my brain chemistry and nature, surfing has been a stern task-master in in delivering some nuanced lessons about how much there is to fear from avoidant behavior.

Andrea: For me it’s all about the kids, you know? And these kids are all outside of the box thinkers and uh, put it mildly, nothing goes as planned you can totally plan out a lesson and have it broken down and really think like, Wow, this is the lesson of all lessons these kids will really get it.” and then they’ll throw a monkey wrench in you. But then you know, you just go with, it. Like that, that’s the key, you know like, I’m sure many people have said this but, every wave is completely different, every single wave, even Malibu, every wave is completely different, the difference between last night and today, for example, it’s a good example. But the one constant thing is change, like the wave is moving, there might be bumps in the way, the next wave is different, constant change, the conditions are changing, everything is just constantly changing. And to have the best session you have to be okay with the change that, that presents itself. In terms of teaching, especially teaching special education, there’s a parallel there, because we gonna be changing left the right and you gotta be able to go with it, and you gotta go with it in a with a fun attitude, you know? And so I tell, like, assistants that come in “Look, you have to be okay with change and you have to be okay with things going as planned. Nine out of your 10 ideas are probably not gonna work out but that one that does is gonna be great. You know, I could surf for an hour and maybe catch two waves but those two, gonna be good. Surfing opens up your creative spirit, and creative mind and teaching requires that you be creative for you to connect to the kids, you know. Especially kids with special needs, you, you know to unlock them you got to show them that you’re passionate about what you’re doing and, and that you can see them you know and surfing is, it’s funny you can you paddle into a wave and try to remember if you’ve ever noticed the wave, like have you really looked at it? Like, when you’re catching that wave and then you wipe out I was like did I even see that wave or was I just riding the wave, you know. That little change of reference where it’s like okay, I am going to just, as I’m surfing my goal is just to see the wave, it was just look at it as it’s moving. If you do that with students, wow, things just change you know that if you do that with surfing it’s just like, wow! I’m really looking at the wave like you know, I used to play these games with myself while I was surfing it was just like ok, I don’t remember this wave, I just rode it, I don’t remember what it looked like, I, I remember what it looked like, right when it was coming and I was about to take off, but now the wave is over, I don’t think I even looked at it, you know, LAUGH and so then it became like I’m gonna try to look at this wave and then when you look at you’re just like oh my gosh I have so much time in the world but when you don’t look at it, it’s like AAHHHH [LAUGH]. And that’s how it is with kids you know like if you take your time to really look at it and not worry about your lesson plan and just really zone in on, on the kids then, then your lesson kind of ends up coming like naturally, which helps.

Maia: So interesting I, I don’t understand quantum physics at all and it’s very dangerous to try to draw metaphors from science but you know there’s the act of observation, observation changes the thing observed and that’s absolutely [oh my gosh] true of surfing and teaching isn’t it?

Andrea: Yeah, yeah. When you get those few moments where you actually are aware that you’re truly watching that would like, yeah that wave I watched that whole wave, um man you end up realizing, hmm I have plenty of time. LAUGH There’s plenty of time. And sometimes people are like, “How did you do that?” I was like well there was plenty of time LAUGH. Yeah, but um that that’s fun but it’s so hard to do. There are so many things, there are so many things that you could do with surfing at Malibu specifically, the challenge is, when people are gonna get in front of you, which they are, the challenge is, can you not just zone in like an attack dog on this person, “You’re in my wave, you’re on my wave and it’s my wave, it’s my wave!” Are you able to say, Huh, let me cut back and see what I can do cutting back, you know like, are you able to see something else those are fun challenges for me like oh that’s kind of, I like to think about it in those terms,

Maia: This is a story that I’ve heard many times just talking to my friends, you started out because it’s fun and you get this rush and you feel good um and it turns into something much bigger than that. Somehow the ride it’s almost analogous to the text that you can consult to sort of develop these priorities and inform the rest of your life.

Andrea: Oh yeah, for sure I mean it um, you know, for me it became my, became everything. Surfing became my everything it’s you know my religion, my peace of mind, my ego checker, my you know, my happiness meter, it’s… it’s really everything for me. But that doesn’t mean that I’m like a surf rat and I’m only hanging at the beach all day, it’s just, the surfing frame of mind extends outside of the actual act of surfing.

Surfing is all about um, you know facing your fears. I remember being in that position where it’s like a huge wall of wave coming at you and you know that that white water’s coming next but, at that point you have a decision to make. Or you cannot make a decision and just be stuck there. And a lot of surfers just get stuck like. AHHH But I realized you, if you go right at it um it always ends up better. It always end… it always has ended up better for me when I face that wall and, basically I’m scared shitless but I’m still like, “Paddle straight to it. Paddle straight to it.” And I paddle straight to it and you make, you make it through, you know. And you look back at the people who froze, they’re just a hot mess back there it’s just like whew! LAUGH I gotta remember to keep doing that. [SO good] But you know although facing your fears. I’ve had some really huge waves coming my way where you would you know be frozen and just and I have been frozen a few times and, you know, like I said near-death experience occurs as a result. One of those things are you just gotta go you gotta go for it.

Maia: A novice at interviewing, I hated to interrupt Andrea, but the audio quality had gotten distracting even to my newbie ears. We spent a quarter of an hour winding up canyon roads looking for a quiet nook to continue. Now, for the first time in our talk, we no longer had a direct view of the ocean, but I could still smell it. What I didn’t know when I conducted this interview is that in the long months it would take me to understand how I could edit and offer it with integrity, the most contentious, divisive and, for me, personally frightening presidential election of my life would unfold. As I listened to Andrea’s perceptive words about all that Malibu, had to offer, I learned something altogether visceral about what these people I was seeking out and their ocean centered practice, had to teach me.

Maia: What about learning to navigate the, what to me are, just mind blowing uh concentrations of people paddling for a single wave that you find in Malibu.

Andrea: Oh yeah, it definitely gets real crowded. You know it never bothered me right from the beginning so and that’s like a frame of frame of mind. I, I try to look at it in terms of, you’re just a different city so Malibu is like New York City of of surf spots in terms of the crowd factor. New York City has its, if you grew up there it has its way for you to get around. You have choices to make in life you know like in Malibu people have choices they don’t have to get all uptight and freaked out by the crowd you know that’s not that doesn’t have to be the only option. You know there is so much to learn from, from others too from the crowd you know how to maneuver how to kick out how to strategize. I learned how to read the waves a lot better so I could I could spot out waves that maybe a lot of people can’t spot out because they’re too preoccupied by everybody else around ‘em that they stop seeing what’s what’s there. It seems like there aren’t any sense of rules there, but there you know there is something there. You have to settle down enough to be able to see it. I find myself telling people to just settle down. If you can’t settle down then maybe Malibu maybe not for you but I think if you look at in terms of there’s something here that I can learn and you can, you know it’s, for me that being able to maneuver, being able to do important cutbacks and all these things that would probably take you years if you were by yourself because at Malibu you have to do that for your safety and the safety of others so you end up um paying attention a lot more and you’re also paying attention to other people in order to have a good time you have to be aware of what’s going on and if you’re in a surf spot where you’re by yourself which is also fantastic, I’m not saying that is not because it is fantastic you know, you’re not learning that as fast. And if you come from a place that’s like that you get to Malibu and you’re just, like holy crap this is just crazy unreal. But if you could manage to get one wave it makes it all worth it at Malibu because that wave is so incredible it’s like, Shoot, that’s at great wave that’s a great wave.

Maia: It’s an incredible wave, it goes on for…

Andrea: Yeah, if you can get one

Maia: so long if you can get one.

Like every endeavor, surfing has its tropes, characters, and stereotypes. In my own head, this contemporary culture, offers, among others, the lone male, feeling at one with nature, a contemporary wanderer above a sea of mists, resentful of others the intrusion. Or the aggressively territorial local, feeling like his home is just that, home, and slashing the tires (or worse) of the tourist with enough hubris to dare to do something equivalent to just letting herself into the living room without knocking, taking up diminishing space in the increasingly crowded waves. I am not one of the usual suspects at my home break in North Carolina. There are a few middle aged women but we are not the norm. Still, it’s a laid back place with something of what I like to think of as Southern wave-hospitality. This was my first real surf expedition to California and I was afraid, particularly in the somewhat delicate emotional state of lingering grief, of encountering West Coast localism- a feeling of not being wanted- a woman of a certain age who no longer has a role in the tribe. Malibu did precisely what Andrea said it does. It made me pay more careful attention to other people. To see them for who they are, not who I expect them to be. This iconic, most crowded of all surf breaks on the U.S. mainland both taught and surprised me.

The very thing that I think you are describing happened to me today twice um I have you know we all walk around with assumptions built into us and categories in our head and I’ve definitely got the “man who knows how to surf and this is his homebreak” category

[Oh yeah] I’ve got him stereotyped and I and I’m in my head I know I know what’s gonna happen if I get in his way [yeah] but twice today [yeah] there were men who had the wave and I backed off and both times they came back and said he didn’t back off that way [oh, yeah, yeah, yeah]. And one of them, was his name yeah yeah Mico, is that him? [Yeah, yeah, Mico] he came up and he’s you know basically said “I missed you, I tell people I have abandonment issues. Don’t leave me alone on a wave again!” [Yeah, he’s a good guy] and I thought, “Oh, this is so interesting!” This place has things to teach me.

Andrea: Yeah, for sure, for sure you get the whole spectrum.

We had a conversation only an aficionado could love about Andrea’s surfboard, a contemporary design by surfboard shaper Tyler Hatzekian she had made for herself. The women she cites as the first female surfers in Malibu were among the first American women who surfed. In ancient Hawaii, surfing was practiced equally (and expertly) by both sexes.

Maia: So, uh, the board that you were riding when we were out there is called the Malibu Chip

Andrea: It’s based off the Malibu chip.

Maia: It’s based off the Malibu Chip.

Andrea: It was designed in and around the 50s. It was the first board that was made a lot narrower and interestingly enough it was originally designed for some of the board shapers of that time, women started surfing during that time and so in their minds they’re thinking let me make something a little lighter and a little board more manageable for the women that are surfing. You know like it’s like like it’s like right around the pre-Gidget, right around the pre-Gidget area, and then And then the guys realized, you know, they’d borrow their girlfriend’s surfboard and realize, “Wow, this board’s kind of fun!” And it got accepted is not just a chickboard. So to me that’s interesting. You know, I’m at the point in my surfing where it’s like, I’m becoming more interested in board design. I wasn’t in a rush to go short. I started surfing when I was 32, I could see transitioning to short board maybe by now but you have to remember I’m 15 years old in terms of surf years you know so I’m still a grom and I’m still like, there’s still a lot for me to learn. And just changing my longboard board designs makes a big difference so then so I figure you know let me go back in time where there was a really important shift in long boards and then work my way back up to you know, to when I started surfing I got, I got this this board made a phenomenal shaper whose influenced, by Lance Carson who surfed Malibu and so I figure well he might be the closest connection Lance Carson was highly influenced by Dora so that’s why I chose Tyler to make the board for me and uh today was the first day I got it on some good, good Malibu waves.

Maia: For anyone out there who does not know the Archetypal tale of Malibu, it was the epicenter of the first modern American surfing boom. In the 1950s creative surfers found new uses for WWII inspired technological innovations in lighter boards and wetsuits. The increased freedom of movement afforded by cars and spending money meant more surfers riding Malibu’s perfect point break. In 1959, when the movie Gidget came out, the hordes descended and we really haven’t stopped coming since. But something happened in the mid-60s. Boards got shorter and performance oriented surfers redefined wave perfection. For a time, Malibu wasn’t as cool as it had been. But times change, longboards are back, and people like me are forever seeking a few days of Malibu perfection.

Andrea sited two particularly well-known surfers from Malibu’s Golden Age, Lance Carson, known for his gravity defying nose-rides and Miki Dora, surfing’s most enigmatic, charismatic and famous outlaw. Andrea wasn’t just interested in the ride but wanted a craftsperson and a narrative to enchant her board with meaning and history. She chose a shaper who knew the history of the place and was interested in picking up where one thread of it, the golden age of American longboarding, had been interrupted. It was a kind of conservatism that built on nostalgia but with something still real, and profoundly relevant. This resonated deeply in November of 2016.

There’s something you said that I want to go back and make sure I heard cause this is such an exciting concept to me. It sounds like you’re trying to experience the history of your place, which is Malibu, [Maybe that is it] in a different way than you would if you just read about.

Andrea: Yeah, yeah and that’s definitely true I’m definitely trying to I’m just trying to figure it out through board design. So Tyler, he’s this phenomenal surfer and he’s been shaping since he was a kid, from his perspective the idea of longboarding kept evolving a certain point that evolution, kind of halted and actually almost died because short board took over and so there was there is a stop right here and so he in his mind is he wanted to continue that evolution so he, he was you know in his perspective of shaping longboards is from that perspective of trying to continue that evolution based on this history. I’m so interested in long boarding um, much more than short boarding for some reason, you know, I like to move around, and I like to move my feet and I like to um I don’t like to be stagnant. I like to feel like I’m walking on water. I really want to learn the style in which you had to surf in order to surf these surfboards. Which has been very, very interesting. I’m learning, I’m learning quite a bit you know, learning quite a bit.

Maia: Could we talk about the background in team sports and the transition to surfing and what happened along the way.

Andrea: Sports and athletic stuff was everything at least from my Mom’s perspective. She was gonna freaking make sure that we were gonna be independent women that could take care of ourselves sports became that, that thing but I play basketball. That was my first love of one sport well actually I had a lot of different loves but basketball became the thing in terms of when I got to be middle school and high school where it’s like, “ok I wanna do this, I wanna do this for my life.” And great about team sport is you’re in this together and you’re uh, you know, you’re part of a larger group, translates well to corporate America or to, to jobs and stuff people like to know that you’re a team player and all that. But the, one of the one of the things that um, that to me, just for me my own personal view about team sports or just competitive play is that the whole point of what you’re doing is actually to beat somebody else, you know, to beat down somebody else, to beat them and ultimately that other person who you beat, they do feel bad cause I felt bad when I would lose and um I was all in that. You know and you work as hard as you can to prepare to beat the other team. It’s always about conquering somebody else or something else to, to get that trophy or to feel like you know, you’re the one. So, that mentality requires, you know, first of all you gotta be all in and you gotta be so into this team whatever the mascot is, that you, like you’re willing to like go to all, all lengths to get that but that, you know, it’s a very aggressive way to think about um physical fitness. It’s a very aggressive approach and what surfing did for me was it gave me that um that desire to improve and to compete but I’m not competing to beat somebody else. I’m trying to improve myself. It was all always about self improving rather than you know, I’m gonna get them, and that’s what I really liked about sport. Surfing helped me transition. Cause for some athletes it takes many years to transition away. You know, you always hear about athletes that should’ve retired 10 years before their time and that’s because it’s so hard to, to make that shift when you give your life to something and surfing you know allows you to do that without having without having this beating thing that I can’t stand. I mean there are parts of surfing that are like that. There’s competitions and, and I’m not saying that I haven’t done em but I’m I struggle at those competitions where before you know I was known to for like I’m the one that’s gonna come through at the game, you know when it counts I’ll be there, where now competition, it’s kind of like, “ah” and that this doesn’t go, go with surfing for me. Surfing helped me get away from that you know and not necessarily feel like that’s the only way to be, to be physical. I’m getting my personal goals met and my sense of like, I want to continually improve and get better and um and it helps subside this, this aggression that comes from competitive sports, you know, like I used to go play all over LA, you know you’re the only female there it’s like, “I got next, yes I’m playing” you know, and you you know you have to really be aggressive to get even opportunity to play. Um, surfing you don’t have to do any of that so it helped me to, kind of put that down when I stopped playing college basketball.

Maia: This observation, from a Malibu surfer, was amazing to me. In my mind, we are discussing a break where there are as many people “competing” for waves as any other scarce resource you can imagine. And yet this woman’s practice in this most populated of all waves, was all about healing from the ill-effects of an emphasis on competition. Clearly, I had and have a lot to learn.

Andrea: You know, I can compare myself to other people but not necessarily compete because everybody out there has such a different style that you you basically appreciate other people’s style it’s not one of those things where it’s like I don’t know if you can be the best surfer in the world. Some people say the best surfer’s the one having the most fun ya know. I personally think the best surfer’s the one that’s continually open to for growth like I’m having the best time continually learning you know?

Maia: And did the shift from competitive physical activity as you say um to this different kind of physical activity, did that inform or influence any other parts of your life do you think?

Andrea: Yeah because you know you still, the thing about competitive sports is you, you have to have high expectations. That’s a good thing, you know. So I still continue to have high expectations for myself. I’m still gonna go all in but with the surfing there’s a truthful aspect so I have high expectations for myself in terms of being truthful to myself which surfing certainly brought along. Like this idea of truth. How are you truthful? There’re so many different ways you can be truthful. Like my goal is to always be try to be truthful but truth, truth is painful [often times]. So how do how can you be truthful but also kind and also thankful and you know all these terms all these things all these words that I never really thought about start to come to play with surfing and, shoot, surfing, you know, it was easy to have a ego with basketball because, you know, I can beat you. I can beat anybody, you know, but with surfing the minute that you have an ego and think, “You got this.” you know, uh Mother Nature will let you know very quickly that you’re just a little peon you’re not even a peon you’re just a little molecule may not even be a molecule. You’re smaller than a molecule. Because that’s happened many times you know, you, on a small day seem you assume everything is no big deal you take it casual and cut your foot or on a, on a big day you think oh I, I can get this wave and you’re held down underwater and you almost drown. There’s always there’s always reminders that uh you can’t have an ego. You gotta come into it very humble.

Maia: You’re not in charge.

Andrea: Not in charge whatsoever. Not in charge whatsoever.

Maia: OK, You said something really interesting and I think I know what you mean but I don’t want to make any assumptions. You talked about the connection between truthfulness and surfing. Can you expand on that a little bit?

Andrea: I haven’t had those egotistical moments in a while but I’m sure they’ll come, because I’m human but those egotistical moments when you think that you know more or that this is your space, not everybody else’s to share, those moments where you’re very ego driven um and you think that’s true that’s the truth, this is who you are the ocean puts you in your place and makes you accept the fact that no we are not as grandiose as you think you are.

Maia: So you’re talking about some kind of capital T truth in which you know, you are part of a larger whole

Andrea: Part of a larger whole…

Maia: You have to get right with that.

Andrea: Exactly and then that translates in just other things then it becomes about you know this word “truth” and then you’re always constantly trying to understand what that means you know and being truthful to yourself and then that translates. you know are my boundaries being pushed? Is this really what I want to do? Is this is making me feel good? And then you start making decisions in your life that that lead you into trying to investigate what is this thing called truth, you know. Not necessarily you telling everybody the truth and hurting somebody’s feelings. You’re telling yourself the truth about who you are and what you are. That that’s has translated from surfing you know. So, it’s like so it’s like the boundaries, What am I okay with? You know um ya know I made a conscious decision to unplug you know like no Facebook, technologies, it’s pretty much hard to reach me but that was like a like a conscious decision because I was recognizing that for me it was capitalizing too much of my time and now my time becomes, is valuable because of surfing it’s like oh hell no. I want to use all my time for creative purposes. Surfing is a big creative option so I don’t want to waste that so, so it’s just being truthful to my own boundaries and my own sense of self and also kind of learning how to put my ego in check from being, you know, from being an elite athlete.

Maia: I don’t know if this gets at it or not, but there was, I started to say this to you in the water but um we talked a little bit yesterday we were lucky enough to surf last night when it was kind of crazy and mixed up and then surf again this morning when it was a lot bigger and more typically classic Malibu [yeah] and each had its challenges for me.

Andrea: Oh, for sure

Maia: As I was reflecting on our time yesterday uh when I was trying to got to sleep but too excited to sleep last night uh I had this moment where I was thinking about you being a Division I college athlete [yeah] and I told you the story that, you know, I loved athletics until I got to junior high when you had to try out and I couldn’t make the teams. We had these two really quite diverse experiences in this one place but together and both times you would turn to me with a big smile and say this looks like a good one and uh and I am very aware of and grateful for the way that surfing can bring people who are very different from one another in terms of their experience or ability, bring us together and in this sort of mutual appreciation of one another [yeah] um and there is a way that you can appreciate one another’s truth. [yeah right] Like you can get into the authentic experience of someone else mastering something that they haven’t done even though it’s not at an elite level and they may never be at an elite level but it’s not about that.

Andrea: It really isn’t really about that you know surfing is not, well for me because you know it is for other people [sure] so I can’t really speak for but for me, it’s uh surfing is an experience and if you take a growth approach and a learning approach, we’re both learning. We may be at different places but we’re it’s really the same place. We’re both trying to to access this amazing energy you know it’s just… There isn’t really for me there isn’t a hierarchy. Of course you see great surfers like, “Oh I envy that and I want to do that.” But I know now that. You know? You can do that you know? You can do that if you put your whole energy into it and you study and you treat surfing as a discipline, as something where you’re actually truly, if you if you embrace it, you don’t have to do that way but if you choose to embrace surfing as a as a holistic discipline, you can, you can pretty much get to just about anywhere like I was telling you before it’s just little steps. Surfing allows you to keep opening more little boxes, you know? And you just keep opening keep opening keep opening and you know, eventually you have you have these days it’s almost like a nirvana, you have like these days where everything just connects and you know time stands and still and everything’s in slow motion and you just you truly are just wholly in sync with whatever energy is out there in the waves. Those are very few and far between but if you continue to have this growth mentality every blue moon you’re gonna have these days where it’s just like, “Wow I truly was dancing with the ocean. I was truly connected to something other than myself” and so that’s what I shoot for I’m always shooting for that I’m always like thinking oh man when those days come, they’re so far in between when those days are there and you can feel it it’s the best, it’s the best feeling. It’s like meditations like that requires that you truly think about it in all aspects you know? Which is cool and I like, I like that I like those surprises that come like that.

Maia: When you say you think about it in all aspects what do you mean all aspects?

Andrea: I mean you, you think about it when you’re in the water and when you’re out of the water. You know surfing gives you this, um this frame of reference I mean think about it you’re like in the ocean for that hour and a half if your mind is right because you have to be okay with people around you but for that hour and a half you are literally not thinking about anything else but this movement of water that people say traveled thousands of miles and it requires that you think about the present to get the most out of this wave too. Doing that and trying to do that outside of surfing is good practice, you know? Or you know what is required to truly be in sync with with the ocean also you know you gotta think about your body you think about your intake you gotta think about stretching and I want to be as fluid as the water’s fluid so it’s like oh wow I’m able to do some stretching now that I wasn’t able to do when I was in college cause when I was in college stretching was just like uh, I wanna hurry up and play this game and beat this team. Where now it’s like when I’m stretching I’m thinking about this will facilitate another box to be opened. Also, um the aggressive, angry side of all of us, um is definitely putting that in check is directly related to surfing for me. Over time I’ve had less “uuuh!” about other people, you know, like I dunno, just recognizing that that kind of stuff is kind of cool. Kinda cool.

Maia: Is it fair to say that you think surfing’s helped you be a better person?

Andrea: Definitely, yeah it has. I mean, it just depends on who you’re talking to. I mean if you’re talking to my partner [laugh], there’s been some adjustments there you know, because,.. I think it’s helped me to be a better person to be around for sure. If I’ve gone too long without surfing then my partner is basically like, “You need to go surfing. LAUGH I need you back right, go surfing. I’ll see you later” LAUGH and you know it just depends cause you know the other side of it is un, yeah it can appear to be a pretty selfish act, you know too. It’s not all Kum-bay-yah I meant um but like I said, it depends on what kind of surfer you are. I tend to prefer surfing on my own and learning and doing these things but a lot of people prefer, the camaraderie in surfing is fun too, you know? And I don’t really see me as surfing on my own cause I, I know so many, so many of these people out there so we just talk out there and have a good time, you know so..

Maia: Not just out there but on the way in. People are excited to see you coming!

Andrea: “Yeah, we had a good surf we got lucky today!” We always say that too is like every day we go out it’s like, well we got lucky today!

Maia: A lotta lucky days at Malibu!

Andrea: Even if it’s like a terrible it’s like, “Oh it was pretty fun!” [still lucky]. Didn’t expect much and I got something LAUGH

Maia: so good. Yeah sometimes low standards are the key to a happy life.

Andrea: Oh yeah, heck yeah, I agree.

Maia: You and I both have an a a background of some sort in visual art, although I cheat with a camera cause I can’t draw all, uh but the, you know the, the art world is just as much bound by our concrete mentality as every other world [mm hm] and so there is the, you the same factors, the domination, the competition, um the production mentality [oh yeah] Can you talk about the way that surfing has altered your life as a creator or informed your life as a creator.

Andrea: I don’t want to say I’m a painter even though I got my masters in painting because I I’ve evolved in terms of how I think of myself in terms of that and I just I’m just a creative person. I like to create, I like to make things. And um surfing has allowed me to make sure I follow my muse. You know it’s made me feel okay with the way in which I choose to create. You know, up until surfing I always had like, “I’m irresponsible I’m not enjoy, I don’t want to do this, gallery hopping, and I don’t wanna do this, I never really wanted to do any of that like I…

Maia: And that felt irresponsible?

Andrea: Well, somebody’ll say well do you have in your work up, and I’ll say, nah, I don’t. You know, but, um you know surfing there is a form of art, I don’t know what you call it where it really is about, well performance art is similar to that but they videotape themselves, so that they can document but surfing is an art form. And it could be why I love long boarding as well because for me, it was about dancing and moving and using the board to, to help me feel as if I’m walking on water but in a very kind of, more of a dance performance. Now I think I’m switching, not switching but I’m now using these, going back in time, which is allowing me to kind of figure out, um, the wave in a different way, but it’s still a form of dance to me, a creative act. But it’s a creative act that, one for the most part you won’t remember as soon as you kick out, you just will feel it. And two definitely nobody else is gonna see you know so as soon as you do it disappears. It’s one of those things where as soon as, soon as you create it, it disappears only thing you can do is feel that it was incredibly, that felt incredibly creative and it felt incredibly beautiful, you know. Like I was telling you know, I suffered from low self-esteem and um, you know, there are times I’m when surfing that I feel so, I feel like a just incredibly beautiful woman. And I’ve never you know, shut up you know I’m usually like I can’t have a complement so I’m kind of you know outside of the surf setting but for me to feel like, oh I really felt beautiful. Like I felt like a beautiful, I feel beautiful, I feel just as beautiful as the wave, you know like I I, I enjoy having that feeling and um that has been um, that’s been very interesting for me and then I enjoy beauty when I see beautiful surfers you know, it’s like, all of it is creative, all of it is artistic. I’ve been making work in the ocean, you know and so it’s hard to, you know, I’m still painting here and there and I draw and I make things, I create, I create, basically I’m creating uh and I’d like to think I’m trying to create, um, something that makes you feel good you know, where before it was always about the drama and downtrodden, you know where now it’s more like, I just want to create things that I just want to do, or I want to create things that are tied to my goals, I’d love to make some furniture, I like to, I’d like to do this act on the wave I’m just gonna paint and see what happens, you know. I’ve had quite a few instances where I paint or draw something that I dream of, a scene and then it comes to fruition, it’s just like, Holy shit! Okay then.” I’m gonna be painting my dreams all the time.

Maia: That is a superpower!

Andrea: It’s like let’s paint our dream. I’m like what is that [talk about visualization!] What’s my heaven like [LAUGH] Let me paint my heaven [Absolutely]. And then I go through periods where I I’m not actually actively painting but I’m creating, I’m painting on water and so you can’t really see it, it’s just kind of, well it’s for myself, I’m doing it for myself, it’s like I don’t really have a, you know, I don’t have a sense of urgency that, that I need the attention.

Maia: Surfing seems to give one, if I can generalize from my experience, a different yardstick for beauty too.

Andrea: Yeah, definitely.

Maia: I mean suddenly all, all of the things that you or even your heroes were capable of creating are not in the same category as what the ocean creates over and over again.

Andrea: You kidding me, yeah. It’s like um yeah, shoot, I mean you can’t, I couldn’t even, you know, there’s no comparison, there’s absolutely no comparison, no comparison.

Maia: It is to turn one’s self, I’ve never thought about this before but, but to allow yourself the to shift from sort of the, the conceit of being the creator to being a grateful member of the audience.

Andrea: Yeah

Maia: When the ocean is the creator…

Andrea: Definitely, definitely and and and those, and the day, my best days are the days where I’m in sync with it, when I feel in sync with it. Shit. Now those days last, I mean I end up dreaming about those days like when I have those days when I’m like totally in sync and for some reason all the best waves just you know, I don’t know if they’re all the best waves but they’re all the best waves for me and I’m in sync, man shoot, I’m as happy as a clam for weeks! And you know I still have my, I have my I have my memories you know I can go back in time and say, Let me just go back and dream about that [LAUGH] remember that day when I was able to do that and it just felt so, like I, I am able to rewind em, you know, in my mind and then they start adding up and it’s just like, oh, I’ll just go from this one to that one it’s kind of like, and I feel good. Makes me feel good and then, and then days like today that are really fun too on those rare occasions where everybody has a Aloha and stoke and everybody’s happy, Oh you go, no, you go, LAUGH, I got it, Ah, that was great wave!” Those don’t happen all the time either you know, but this morning was one of those days were it was like like the right kind of the right amount of Aloha Stoke was there, the right amount of people were there.

Maia: So Is there any thing else that you would want, I mean if you can imagine your, um the ideal audience member for this and I don’t have an audience yet so far it’s just me but is there anything else that you would want that person to hear that you would want to share with that person cause that’s what this project is really supposed to be, um, me trying to find a way to share all of this wisdom that I feel like I get exposed to in certain other surfers.

Andrea: Here’s the thing I recognize that um surfing for me is a state of mind. It’s just a state of mind. The ocean is a major part of this globe, it’s like 70-something, 78% and it’s increasing cause now Global warming, we’re getting more ocean which I think is probably good maybe the earth is trying to cleanse us of this human madness but surfing is a frame of mind, you don’t have to actually be in the water to be a surfer, like you could get that same surfing experience hiking. You can get that same surfing experience in other forms. It just happens to be surfing for me but you talk to other people who are in different activities that’s outdoor related, entrenched in some form of nature and you get surfing. You get the surfing thing. I’m a water person, so, I’m not saying that the ocean’s not strong, it’s hella strong. But if you are somebody that is so far removed from it that there is no access to it, there is access to this feeling of, feeling of nature and hearing and listening to birds and paying attention to things, you know, in your backyard. You know what I mean like, um, you know that’s you know surfing allowed me to look and see what’s around me, you know, like, oh, there is wilderness in the city, I never saw it because I never paid attention to it. You know what I mean, like, um so so surfing could be anything and it doesn’t have to be standing up on the board. It could be boogie boarding, it could be building sand castles, it’s not the end all to be all, it it’s the frame of mind that you get from surfing which is really about being in nature with no concrete in front of you um that that I would challenge the that notion that it can only be in surfing because I don’t believe it has to, you know if you drive up to the mountains, or if you you must go to some of these national parks you quickly recognize that, oh I feel good today and we weren’t anywhere near water now is because you are in and amongst um amazing stuff. You know, amazing stuff, it’s amazing out here. You know, it’s it’s beautiful and sometimes, LA is tricky especially this time of year you don’t see the stars but you do have opportunities, like after rains or certain to certain specific times you can find little pockets of time where you notice that the, so I would say that, I would say I’m, you know, I’m blessed and I feel lucky that I stumbled onto surfing and it’s provided me a lot of joy and now I know at first when I first started surfing I did worry is like oh my God if something happens to me I can’t surf I’m gonna die I don’t know what I’m gonna do. But I do recognize now that if I was forced to step away from the act of surfing I would still be able to find some joy in the mentality of surfing and that’s that’s the thing that, you know that aloha spirit that the Hawaiians talk about is not just in the ocean but that’s what I’m hoping for hoping that (when that day comes where I actually literally cannot physically surf that um, and then I’ll be in a quest for another thing, another surfing.

Maia: Eloquent powerful and so generous, thank you very much for all of that I do feel I have written a few waves to wisdom today.

For more interviews, to see photographs resulting from my own ocean-based practice, and to learn about our surf-centered retreats visit wavestowisdom.com